Underground, Underwater, and Trans-Density Bases Part 1

Area 51, Kirtland, the alien interview, and alien bases

Feb 22, 2024

Cheyenne Mountain Complex entrance on Feb. 29, 2008.

The United States has constructed and operates numerous underground facilities, most famously NORAD headquarters within Cheyenne Mountain. Dr. Richard Sauder has shown in his books that they also have the technology to build so-called deep underground (and undersea) command centers (DUCCs) and tunnels, and have most likely done so many times over the past several decades. Sauder has reason to believe these bases can be constructed up to 12-14 miles below the surface. In Hidden in Plain Sight (2010), he wrote:

By now, I am clear on a few simple facts. 1) There are many secret underground and probable undersea bases and tunnels. 2) They can be impressively large and surprisingly deep. 3) They contain very sophisticated technology. 4) Many thousands of people are involved in constructing, operating, and maintaining these facilities. 5) They are located all over the world. 6) Aliens are probably involved in some, or maybe many, of the underground and undersea bases. 7) High-speed tube shuttle train systems probably do exist. 8) We, the people of this planet, are being massively lied to by our so-called “leaders”.

Regarding point #6, from almost the beginning of the modern UFO phenomenon, there have been rumors and accounts of underground bases of operation for UFOs and their occupants. As he put it: “this highly strange issue of purported aliens underground and/or underwater is exceedingly persistent.” In his 1998 book Alien Base, Timothy Good writes that infamous contactee George Adamski the first in the modern UFO era (post-1947) to suggest such a thing (though in some forms it goes back even further, as we’ll see in later parts of this series).

Then came the abduction reports. According to Thomas E. Bullard’s comprehensive 1987 study (part 1, part 2), as of the mid 1980s, around 30% of abduction cases involving an “otherworldly journey” also involved the witness going “underground, undersea or through a tunnel to an apparent underworld.” There are also accounts of human military and scientists operating alongside alien beings in such locations, whether bases, tunnels, or caverns, which often also feature laboratories where some kind of research or experimentation is being performed. Accounts such as those of Myrna Hansen (1980) and Christa Tilton (1987) gained some notoriety in the 1980s, influencing researchers like Paul Bennewitz, John Lear and John Grace (AKA Valdamar Valerian). Jerome Clark writes:

In the 1980s a dark side movement grew on ufology’s fringes. […] It holds that the world’s “secret government” and aliens have formed an evil alliance to harm human beings in various ways. Part of the mythology has it that in great caverns under the southwestern desert—one under Dulce, New Mexico, is mentioned most often—government scientists and extraterrestrials work together to create soulless android beings which are to serve as slaves once the New World Order has assumed control of the world.

In his UFO crash-retrieval reports, ex-Air Force investigator Leonard Stringfield quotes sources referring to underground facilities, many holding UFO material, at the following locations: Colorado Springs, Wright-Patterson, Fort Hood, Puerto Rico, Norton AFB, and Area 51. In 1988, he wrote: “According to the rumor mills, an alien race of the ‘grays’ is in their fortressed underground laboratories and are genetically experimenting with the human race.”

In addition to these accounts, researchers also have those of highly placed insiders and whistleblowers to suggest such a reality, though their accounts can rarely be verified. One of the most prominent was Lt. Col. Philip J. Corso, who in his 1997 book The Day After Roswell wrote that unidentified submerged objects (USOs) and the potential that they were building undersea bases was a concern to the navy as far back as the 1950s. Good writes that he was told by a “well-connected source” that “certain extraterrestrials have a number of underground and undersea bases on our planet.” And filmmaker James Fox said an intelligence community contact suggested he change some of his language referring to the phenomenon because “they might be living under our oceans.”

The first Cassiopaean reference to secret bases (military or alien) was in the first recorded session, and is one of the rare instances of a subject raised without prompting. The second reference, two weeks later, was also unprompted. (This happened several times with this topic, as we’ll see.)

July 16, 1994

A: Denver new airport big, big, big, big scandal.
Q: (L) What kind of scandal?
A: Government.
Q: (L) Specifically what?
A: You will see. Dallas airport is secret base; Orlando too; Miami too.
Q: (L) What about Denver airport and how does it relate to prophecies?
A: Denver reveals the government. Look for it. Pay attention.

Since its opening on February 28, 1995, the Denver International Airport has been associated with a number of conspiracy theories, many surrounding its architecture and artwork, which included some disturbing murals, a statue of a rearing stallion with glowing eyes, gargoyles, and masonic references. For example, see the book by Alex Christopher: Pandora’s Box II: The Denver International Airport Story (1996). He writes in its first pages:

That airport project was riddled with corruption involving key people from the Denver area HUD and savings-and-loan scandal and involving the CIA […] I would assume from that that there is much more to the airport than meets the eye. When the CIA is pushing something that hard, it has to be a front for something else. There are many rumors running around. […]
When I first went to the new airport, I was accompanied by an engineer [identified later in the book as Phil Schneider, who will come up again in this series] who had been involved for many years working in construction for the Industrial Defense Complex building giant, “Deep Underground Bases.” He told me that he had been offered the position of head engineer for the construction of the base that was to go under the new “Denver International Airport,” back in the early eighties. He said that it covered an underground area of 85 square miles […]

The airport recently capitalized on such speculation during recent renovations, with advertisements such as the following:

Sauder, by contrast, has this to say: “The Denver Federal Center, on the western edge of the Denver metropolitan area is the location of a FEMA underground command center. Many people are concerned about the Denver airport as being the site of an alleged underground base, but for my money the Denver Federal Center installation is more important.” For a map of more alleged deep-underground base locations, see this archived page, and this article on Substack.

July 30, 1994

Q: (L) What other information can you give us?
A: Base of aliens near here small. […] Anclote Gulf Park used to be a military base. Underground.
Q: (L) Why underground?
A: To hide.

The Anclote Gulf Park used to house the Anclote Missile Tracking Annex, which began “phasing down” in 1969. There is a power plant in the park, visible next the annex on this map. This base was brought up again a year later (discussed in Part 2).

October 7, 1994

Q: (L) What are Mars’s moons?
A: Disguised bases.
Q: (L) Who built them?
A: Who else? The Lizzies [i.e. reptoids/reptilians].

This idea goes back at least to the 1960s, when New Mexico contactee Paul Villa claimed he was told that aliens have bases on the Moon and that Phobos was artificially constructed and hollow. (See Good’s Alien Base.) In 2009, American astronaut Buzz Aldrin told C-SPAN viewers about a monolith on Phobos, “a very unusual structure.” (See photographs and video here.) In 1991, retired Soviet Air Force Colonel Marina Popovich shared the final photograph taken by the Russian probe Phobos 2 right before it disappeared from radio contact in 1989. It depicted an anomalous object below Phobos.

October 9, 1994

Q: (L) Are there alien bases in the United States?
A: Yes. New Mexico, Colorado, off Florida, Appalachia, California.
Q: (L) Are these underground bases?
A: Yes. Also underwater.

Later sessions will make mention of Kirtland AFB and Dulce (NM), the North Carolina mountains, China Lake and Mount Shasta (CA), the Florida panhandle and Bermuda Triangle. Aside from mysterious disappearances, the Triangle appears to be a “hot-spot” or “window area,” associated with a host of strange phenomena. (See chapter 1 of Nick Redfern’s book The World’s Weirdest Places.) Tim Good’s source, mentioned above, told him that one of the alien bases he was aware of was located in the Caribbean. As for Appalachia, some additional possible locations include the Ohio Valley in West Virginia and southwestern Pennsylvania, which are also hot-spots. (There is also an underground military complex in Adams County, PA.)

October 22, 1994

Q: (L) We would like to have comments on the thumping noises reportedly heard off the coast of California?
A: Expansion of a base.
Q: (L) What kind of base?
A: It’s a transfer center for those beings known as the Grays.
Q: (L) And what was the thumping?
A: They are expanding it.
Q: (L) Is it construction work?
A: Yes except that they are using sound waves to disintegrate rock in the crust under the ocean. This disintegration causes the atomic structure of the particles being disintegrated to completely disappear which has something to do with why those sounds are heard in that particular rhythm.
Q: (L) Any other comments?
A: There is some awareness on the part of the U.S. government as to what is going on there. They are suspicious.

Perhaps coincidentally, the two UFO cases covered in the NYT’s 2017 article on the U.S. DoD’s AAWSAP program, military footage of which was later confirmed as legitimate, occurred off the coast of California (the Tic Tac case of November 14, 2004) and off the coast of Florida (the Gimbal and Go-Fast videos, taken in January of 2015). Sauder cites Linda Porter’s abduction experience of an undersea base off the coast of Santa Barbara, CA. There is also a magnetic anomaly off Catalina Island, CA, the site of many UAP sightings.

October 25, 1994

Q: (L) Are there alien bases on the Moon?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Who do the bases belong to?
A: Grays.

March 4, 1995

A: They don’t inhabit the Moon, they just use it. […]
Q: (L) Are there alien bases on Mars?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Whose?
A: Grays and Lizards.

Lt. Col. Corso claimed that the U.S. Army and Air Force possess over one hundred photos of the Moon “that showed some evidence of an alien presence.” Karl Wolfe, who worked for the U.S. Air Force with a top-secret clearance, claims he saw such photos while on assignment at Langley AFB, VA, in 1965. Redfern writes in The NASA Conspiracies that Wolfe was told “NASA had uncovered evidence of a large base of unknown origin and intent that was situated upon the far side of the moon’s surface.” The photographs showed what looked like “a huge, sprawling space city.”

In the original manuscript of his book, Corso also wrote this: “It appears that they have bases on the Moon and Mars and we have scouted the areas. If they inhabit large ships like phobos we have sent radio and radar signals.” (The final form of Corso’s book, which was published in 1997, did not include this passage.)

In his book Penetration (1998), Ingo Swann relates remote viewing a base on the far side of the Moon in 1975 for a mysterious intelligence figure using the pseudonym “Mr. Axelrod” at a secret military base. Axelrod was allegedly Raymond Wallis, according to his family, and he claimed to do work at Area 51 during his career from the 1950s to 1980s, and that the remote viewing in question was conducted at Area 51’s S-4. (See Redfern, Area 51.)

Experiencer Chris Bledsoe told Danny Jones that NASA scientist Hal Povenmire told him there were “big” and “ancient” bases on the Moon, some of which “looked like mushrooms” (though that description may have been inspired by this crater image). Timothy Taylor (“Tyler” in Diana Walsh Pasulka’s books) also hinted to him that there was something strange about the Moon that “was not by accident.”

The following books trace the history of the ideas that there is something (or a lot) artificial regarding the Moon:

Don Wilson: Our Mysterious Spaceship Moon (1975) and Secrets of Our Spaceship Moon (1979)
George H. Leonard: Somebody Else Is on the Moon (1976)
Fred Steckling: We Discovered Alien Bases on the Moon (1981)
Christopher Knight & Alan Butler: Who Built the Moon? (2005)

The first mention of Area 51 was in reference to Bob Lazar and this video:

October 28, 1994

Q: (L) Bob Lazar supposedly worked on alien craft retro-engineering?
A: Did but sinister. Involved with questionable types.

Lazar was seemingly recruited by Ed Teller of hydrogen-bomb fame. His first wife was connected with the Hell’s Angels and convicted in relation to an associated murder. And Lazar himself was involved in some shady businesses, like an illegal brothel. According to ex-CIA officer Jim Semivan (now of To The Stars): “I don’t have any issue with Bob Lazar. I believe what he’s saying is accurate. It makes sense to me that they would hire him.” (He also claims he later got flak for saying this.)

Q: (L) His video about working at Area 51 and descriptions of propulsion systems and alien craft was or was not truth?
A: Close to the truth. Craft tech: minor points were off.

For modern visualizations of the craft tech based on Lazar’s recollections, see Project Gravitaur. In 1994 hacker Matthew Bevan found files in Wright-Patterson’s system describing a vehicle prototype closely resembling Lazar’s description of the craft he studied (a dual-level anti-gravity craft utilizing a heavy element for its power source). For more on Lazar, see Redfern’s Area 51 as well as Lazar’s autobiography, Dreamland (2019).

December 10, 1994

Q: (L) Has the base at Area 51 been moved to Kirtland as this [Cosmic Awareness] stuff says?
A: No.
Q: (T) Is there a base at Area 51?
A: Yes. Kirtland has a new addition.

According to Richard Sauder, Kirtland Air Force Base, NM, has an underground base beneath a foothill of the Manzano Mountains. It was constructed in the late 1940s as a “super-secure nuclear weapons assembly and storage facility.” One of the builders of the original base told Sauder that security was intense, and miners were blindfolded to and from their work site so that they were only aware the small portion they were working on at any given time. Los Alamos and White Sands Missile Range also host underground bases.

In 1980, base personnel at Kirtland made several reports of flying saucers over the Manzano Weapons Storage Area. The base also experienced an anomalous shutdown of all its radar systems around this time, which investigators considered may have been a result of active jamming from an unknown source. Tim Good was told by a source he considered reliable that “an alien base supposedly existed in that vicinity at one time.”

Q: (L) Is the base at Area 51 where our military and aliens are working in conjunction?
A: They have recovered craft of Grays, but human and alien personnel are not working together there.

Reports from Area 51 whistleblowers suggest that the base has held UFO-related documents, technology, and even at least one live alien. S-4 itself is described as a massive underground base dug directly into the mountain.

In addition to Bob Lazar’s description of documents and a number of alien craft, we have the following accounts. In The NASA Conspiracies (2011) and Area 51 (2019), Nick Redfern quotes a source named “John” who claimed to have done work for the U.S. intelligence community in the 1970s, including at Area 51 for one year starting in April 1971. He and his colleagues there were custodians controlling access to certain types of files dealing with aircraft prototypes, exotic weaponry, biological weaponry and UFOs. John controlled the UFO files, which dated from the period of 1943 to 1968, possibly, John thought, what used to be the personal collection of James Jesus Angleton from the CIA. While the documents dealt with such things as recovered craft and aliens (both live and dead), he says he saw neither during his year on the base (and even came to the conclusion the documents were some perhaps hoaxed and sort of loyalty test).

Another potential source is the “anonymous” “Agent Kewper/Stein” (de-anonymized by researcher Richard Geldreich as Oscar Wayne Wolff), who was originally interviewed by Linda Moulton Howe in 1998 and again shortly before his death by Richard Dolan. Wolff, who was in the Army Signal Corps, says that he was recruited by the CIA in the late 1950s to study top-secret Project Blue Book files. His job was to identify and classify craft types from various photographs. He and his colleagues visited Area 51 on one occasion, where they were briefly shown various alien craft (and some Nazi saucers) in a large underground hangar, as well as a live Gray, which Wolff refused to interact with because he thought it might be demonic.

There are several others. Here is a list (probably incomplete) with the year they first went public, their names, the years the claimed to have been in the facility, and a short summary of what they claimed to have seen there:

1989: Bob Lazar, 1988-1989, multiple craft, documents, possible live Gray (journalist George Knapp, who broke the story, also heard from numerous others, including Roy Byrum, who worked as an accountant for several base personnel who had told him of alien craft and reverse-engineering)
1997: “Victor,” 1991, video of live Gray (see below)
1998: Oscar Wayne Wolff, 1959, multiple craft, live Gray
2001: Bill Uhouse, 1966-1979, craft, live Gray
2003: Charles Hall, 1964, live “tall white” aliens
2006: “John,” 1971-1972, documents
2014: Boyd Bushman, 2000-2014 (aerospace colleagues), craft, dead and live aliens
2023: Eric Tabor, 1980s (great uncle Sam Urquhart), egg-shaped craft
2024: Albert Stein, Project Bluebook employee, taken to S-4 and shown a disc

One of the briefing documents Lazar claims to have read referenced an incident that allegedly occurred circa 1979 in which a confrontation broke out between aliens and security personnel at S-4/Area 51. If true, this might imply that human and alien personnel had at one point worked together there, but that such cooperation ceased at this time. However, there is also the possibility that this document was written as disinformation, and either that the event never happened or occurred elsewhere (see Part 2 for more information).

Area 51 was also brought up in a couple more recent sessions:

December 10, 2022

Q: (Rancho Relaxo) On September 11, 1997, the radio host Art Bell took a call from a “frantic man” who claimed to be an ex-Area 51 employee. Was it real or a hoax?
Caller [voice breaking up with apparent suppressed crying]: OK, um, um, OK, what we’re thinking of as aliens, Art, they’re extra-dimensional beings, that an earlier precursor of the space program they made contact with. They are not what they claim to be. They’ve infiltrated a lot of aspects of, of, of the military establishment, particularly the Area 51. The disasters that are coming, they, the military— I’m sorry, the government knows about them. And there’s a lot of safe areas in this world that they could begin moving the population to now, Art.
Art: But they’re not doing, not doing anything.
Caller: They are not. They want those major population centers wiped out so that the few that are left will be more easily controllable…
A: Real.

July 29, 2023

Q: (Caesarea) An alleged interview with an alien has been circulating on video since 1997. “Redacted” recently did a video on it, alleging it is real based on the guest’s [Jon Stewart’s] investigation. […]
The interview was supposedly with a Gray alien at Area 51, a special area where they housed aliens that had crashed. They interviewed them once every month. So in the interview there were a couple doctors with flashlights and it was kind of dark and a lot of people said the alien looks real and that to have it be fake, it would be too expensive. So that was kind of the gist of it.[…] it was supposed to have been filmed in, I think, 1991. […] The original guy that was narrating the video had his face hidden and he called himself Victor. The details of the conversation weren’t really the focus. It was that the alien was having a medical problem, like he couldn’t breathe, and there was a device showing that he was in some sort of distress. […] they had flashlights and they were looking at him and checking his throat and his pulse or something. […] They said that they had psychics there, that they would telepathically communicate with the alien for the interrogation/interview. (L) And in no place does it reveal what the alien said at any point? (Caesarea) I think the guy in the original video that was kind of describing it might have mentioned some things he said. They didn’t have it in the Redacted interview what the alien might have said. The video itself wasn’t a conversation. It was just like a two-minute clip of them kind of interacting, but there was no audio, so no real way of knowing what, if anything, was discussed at that particular conversation. (Ark) The alien was very dark. You couldn't recognize anything. It was in the dark. And there were implications that the alien was communicating telepathically. […] (L) Was it a real alien in the video?
A: Yes. […]
Q: (thorbiorn) Where was that alien from, inner Earth, other density or dimension?
A: Sometimes they are the same. […]
Q: (Alejo) What did they ask the alien? […]
A: Trying to get him to explain purpose of aliens in general.
Q: (Alejo) Why did it choke?
A: Wrong atmosphere, pressure, etc.
Q: (Joe) Gray aliens don’t know much anyway, do they?
A: No.

Stewart has done several interviews on his research into the film, including with Richard Dolan and Disclosure Team. The original 1997 documentary is available here. Victor’s Coast to Coast appearance is available here. And a follow-up with Victor from 2007 can be viewed here and here.

In addition to Area 51, two other bases come up frequently in reference to UFO material and/or non-human biologics: Wright-Patterson Air Force Base (Ohio) and the Dugway Proving Ground (Utah). See Redfern’s book Area 51 as well as Inside the Real Area 51: The Secret History of Wright Patterson (2013) and UFO Secrets Inside Wright-Patterson: Eyewitness Accounts from the Real Area 51 (2019) by Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt.

Continuing the December 10, 1994, session:

Q: (L) In one of my Fate magazines over there I read a story about a fellow who discovered an enormous structure in a cave when he was wounded and hiding there during the war. It was in Europe somewhere. I am visualizing the image. What was this thing this man found in this cave?
A: Magnesium wall made by Lizard beings. Constructed 309,448 years ago. It was part of a base. It was buried during cataclysms.

This is the Antonin Horak case, which took place in Czechoslovakia in 1944. For more information, see chapter 29 of Laura’s Wave Series, as well as Mr. Mythos’s in-depth summary below, which includes drawings of the structure. Note at 15:35 that Horak’s pick-axe “made no marks and bounced off vigorously,” implying it was in some way frictionless. This feature will also be noted in another case of an alleged alien base in Part 2.

Underground, Underwater, and Trans-Density Bases Part 1

Area 51, Kirtland, the alien interview, and alien bases

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